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[Music]

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explode the bazaars or e-ticket ride

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into the world of the paranoid

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strap yourself e'en as we traverse the

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universe exploring the unexplained UFO s

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ghosts Lost Worlds

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cryptozoology waters as well as other

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dimensions it's time to take back the

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night last night now your electrifying

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hosts of exploring the bizarre Timothy

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Begley and team sports secret Russians

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UFO messages top secret wait here comes

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some more hmm

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I got it all written down Tim look well

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what does it say how about I know you

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think I can read Moriscos okay we'll

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wait a minute here I learned some Morse

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code when I was a boy scout trying to

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get my ham radio badge let me tried

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torrents light well it's okay this part

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says the week is long it sure is

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what else does it say the silver cat

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feeds when blue meets yellow in the West

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keep reading I I think it's working no

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it is it this is this is nonsense this

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is why that big red UFO is hovering our

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way I III think it's it's going to make

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it going to attack us or something

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okay okay okay well let's let's get back

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to the case you're our Studios maybe

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Nick Redfern can answer our questions

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for us in a safer way I think we spend

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all we spend all of our time on the show

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running away from stuff you know III

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swear we get better at this all all the

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time you know I I'm waiting for somebody

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and it Netflix or Hulu did to get in

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touch with us and want to do a Saturday

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a cartoon series although I guess

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cartoons are not on Saturday anymore and

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they're not gonna my name kids we were

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originally going to do this

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with a boris and Natasha accent but we

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didn't know who was gonna be Natasha if

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didn't want to do it and you know when I

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was a chance jet

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I wasn't transgender at this point yeah

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my tech my mind the Tash is very good

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and you know y'all never come up it's

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all free how about by Boris yeah by this

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time our guest is probably fled although

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we'll rope it will rope him back in I

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believe Tim so you you you and I have

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been busy busy finishing up that book

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area51 warning keep out and it's gonna

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be a busy week for us we've got a lot of

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shows and all lined up and we're anxious

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to see what goes on out there now I

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won't be going there myself it's a long

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way from Manhattan and it's a long dusty

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drive you know last time I was out there

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if it wasn't because of the two very

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attractive young ladies in my

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convertible I'd be a marshmallow right

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now

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got to get gas make sure you're filled

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up because there's no gas for 90 miles

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and I could have swore that I gassed up

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but I guess I didn't because somewhere

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along the line we sputtered and and the

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the car came to a halt and I guess I can

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blame it on the the girls and the loud

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music and and the fresh hot air but

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luckily the traffic slowed all three

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cars and a half an hour in a gentleman

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with a motorboat that he was hauling

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stopped and actually siphoned gas Forest

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much to the chagrin of his wife but I

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thank Helen and the page for getting me

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out of a jam because I'd be out there

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with the roadkill but anyway on let us

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go let us go on with the evening show

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Tim tell us who we're having on this

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evening because it's an old

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de vars that's right well and as we said

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at you know introduction NIC Redferns

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making a return visit to explore in the

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bazaar always happy to have NIC with us

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because you know it's always going to be

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a fascinating show when when NYX is with

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us now

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NIC is a full time author a journalist

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specializing in a wide range of unsolved

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mysteries including Bigfoot Loch Ness

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monster UFO sightings government

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conspiracies you name it among his many

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exploits nick has investigated their

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reports of Lake Monsters and Scotland's

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vampires and Puerto Rico

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werewolves in England aliens in Mexico

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and sea serpents in the United States

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Nick travels and lectures extensively

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around the world originally from England

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he currently lives in Dallas Texas his

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most recent books include the books we

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will be talking about tonight flying

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saucers from the Kremlin he's also

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written top-secret alien abduction files

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and area 51 the revealing truth of UFOs

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secret aircraft covers up and

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conspiracies right up our alley this

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time around well we know we got to ask

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nip the first question out of the gate

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here are you going to a storm the

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I actually won't be you know my view on

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it I guess might be quite different to

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that of a lot of people in ufology or

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not you know it's difficult to say but

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the way I look at it is like this if you

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want to investigate and research 51

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that's one thing and if you want to sort

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of you know hang out in the little towns

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in the area and you know not back some

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beers and a few joints you know and I'm

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just out of stuff with the little alien

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in and I talked to pack you know she

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she's had materialized inside the the

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bar there and all I mean she's a you

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know serious about the

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this yeah well I mean to me that's all

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fine you know everybody has like at all

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time sort of you know sort of laning

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against the order of the car and

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everybody you know thirty forty fifty

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people all chats in about area 51 that's

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fine

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but for me at least I don't think anyone

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should be contemplating or thinking

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about the seriously thinking about the

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idea of trying to invade a US military

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base because that's basically what this

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you know much of this came down to you

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know was the idea of trying to basically

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storm area 51 that was the term you know

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that was used yeah and if you think

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about it just because area 51 is sort of

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seen as this mysterious cool place where

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there might be dead aliens and live

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aliens and crashed UFOs just because of

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that it doesn't mean it gives you the

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right to actually to try and literally

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break into a US military base I mean

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it's really no different to five hundred

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people trying to make it break into the

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better pentagon and you imagine what

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they fear there would be that happened

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so to me nobody should be doing this at

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all you're trying to break okay but let

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me say this when you say break in there

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it's not like there's barbed wire or it

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says extensive fencing around the base

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you walk over a line there there's a

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sign that says don't walk over this line

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or something will happen to you but I

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mean to me that's not high security if

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they really want to keep you out the

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fence around it well no it's not like

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climbing a fence you know around your

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local or you know Air Force or military

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base you're right basically what it

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comes down to is you know there are

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certain huge portions of Nevada desert

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which are essentially under the control

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of the military and what it basically

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sort of comes down to is that if you try

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and get within about 15 miles of the

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base

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even though there's no sort of literal

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fence all around there when you get to

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with about 15 miles of where the the

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perimeter is you will be stopped by

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security guards latin-1

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wagons re yeah yeah like arrested and

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fine you know putting the local

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sheriff's jail for like three days to

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give you know to teach you a lesson

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you think that's ever happened

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oh yeah there's been a number of

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occasions when people have have tried

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that I mean there was a the most recent

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one I think I can think of was about two

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or three years ago when an Irish from

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from Ireland and Irish TV company

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decided to go out there and they didn't

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listen or you know follow the warnings

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and they ended up paying something like

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like a $500 fine age and like something

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like a night or two nights in the local

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jail and just you know given the the

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fear of God putting them that kind of

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thing so that still goes on now if

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you've got hypothetically three or four

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hundred people doing that charging

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across the desert it's not gonna work

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out well I just that is so first of all

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even if you gotta cross the line your

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duck the aliens are not hanging out on

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the guard shack you know they're they're

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off for 20 miles in an underground

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bunker seven years stories below the

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earth but hey you wrote a book on this I

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got a book that just came out area 51

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warning keep out what what's the title

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of your book I know I haven't here on

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the Shelf well it's called it's called

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area 51 it's one of those no-brainer

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titles and yeah but the subtitle sort of

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deals with UFOs secret aircraft and

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conspiracies and actually you know I

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mean the book came out it was kind of

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timely but it really was a coincidence

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because the book was actually finished

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about four months ago something like

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that and the publisher got it out

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quickly and then about a week or two

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after the book at its official

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publication day that's when the story I

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came out after that about you know this

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whole storming issues well what is it

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what is your take on it is there

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back-engineering going on out there or

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was there because probably did so

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they've all taken it somewhere else

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after all those shenanigans going on is

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there back technology going on out there

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are there aliens they're somewhere

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underground or is it just a home of the

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you - well I think it's one or two

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things either there are living and dead

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aliens and crashed UFOs out there or for

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some sort of like weird disinformation

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psychological warfare angle there is

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somebody or an organization that wants

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us to think that that's what's going on

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and it could even be a combination of

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the two but I think if you look at the

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history of 51 you find that over the

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years and decades there's been a lot of

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weird mind games out there too where

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people don't really know what's the

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truth and what is and I think part of

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that's been done deliberately to try and

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sort of prevent people from learning the

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bigger picture and but the big the big

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question is what's the bigger picture

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you know is it aliens easy classified

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military aircraft that are sort of 2030

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years ahead of what we're told about you

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know and how about a barber Lazar would

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you take on him well you know a lot of

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people totally rights off Lazar but I

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actually don't and I'll tell you why the

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reason I don't I'm sure you know both

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million team of over the years come

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across a number of people in the UFO

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field who are just outright hoaxes now

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those typical hoaxes they tend to you

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know they come up with this fantastic

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story they go all across the lecture

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circuit conferences on TV get big book

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00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:48,050
deals etc etc well Lazar had this

272
00:13:52,569 --> 00:13:50,930
fantastic story to tell if you look at

273
00:13:54,340 --> 00:13:52,579
the history of him he never really

274
00:13:56,500 --> 00:13:54,350
capitalized on it I mean he never wrote

275
00:13:58,930 --> 00:13:56,510
his own book he never had anybody

276
00:14:01,510 --> 00:13:58,940
else ghostwriter book for him he didn't

277
00:14:04,870 --> 00:14:01,520
sell the rights to like a you know some

278
00:14:06,850 --> 00:14:04,880
huge Hollywood company to make his you

279
00:14:09,700 --> 00:14:06,860
know his movie with someone like Tom

280
00:14:12,460 --> 00:14:09,710
Cruise playing them you know bob lazar

281
00:14:15,010 --> 00:14:12,470
that kind of thing and you'd hardly ever

282
00:14:17,620 --> 00:14:15,020
saw him on the lecture circuit or at

283
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:17,630
conferences you know he really was in

284
00:14:21,970 --> 00:14:19,610
the background and and if you look at

285
00:14:24,430 --> 00:14:21,980
his story also he didn't really gain

286
00:14:26,620 --> 00:14:24,440
anything from it so in other words he

287
00:14:30,250 --> 00:14:26,630
didn't come across like your average

288
00:14:32,410 --> 00:14:30,260
hoax whose goal is to sell all their

289
00:14:36,310 --> 00:14:32,420
copies of their books and then keep the

290
00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:36,320
story circulating and adding to the

291
00:14:40,900 --> 00:14:39,170
story new lies when they you know when

292
00:14:43,990 --> 00:14:40,910
the story comes to an end

293
00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:44,000
Lazar Lazar whether you believe him or

294
00:14:49,420 --> 00:14:46,730
not he did not come across like the

295
00:14:53,020 --> 00:14:49,430
average UFO hoax and I mean that that is

296
00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:53,030
a fact you know one I I have my own take

297
00:14:58,990 --> 00:14:56,450
on this I believe that he is fronting

298
00:15:01,270 --> 00:14:59,000
for someone else in other words there's

299
00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:01,280
someone there someone else who told him

300
00:15:05,890 --> 00:15:03,770
this story and said Bob why don't you go

301
00:15:07,690 --> 00:15:05,900
out and take credit for it you know

302
00:15:11,590 --> 00:15:07,700
somebody is playing behind the scenes

303
00:15:13,780 --> 00:15:11,600
and using Bob as the as the as the

304
00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:13,790
puppet and I think that might be what's

305
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:15,650
happening in some of these cases is that

306
00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:19,370
they find that as someone to front for

307
00:15:24,690 --> 00:15:21,170
them because they don't want to you know

308
00:15:27,010 --> 00:15:24,700
I mean he has been a public figure and

309
00:15:29,100 --> 00:15:27,020
he does he does seem to like the

310
00:15:31,450 --> 00:15:29,110
attention he's the type of guy well I

311
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:31,460
don't do a lot of shows and I don't do

312
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:32,690
this and that and the other thing but he

313
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:35,210
does I mean kinda I mean it's not like

314
00:15:40,780 --> 00:15:38,210
he's been on the coast to coast and he

315
00:15:43,510 --> 00:15:40,790
was on the old art belljo and there's a

316
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:43,520
movie out about him now and so forth but

317
00:15:51,340 --> 00:15:46,930
anyway let's move on to your new book on

318
00:15:54,580 --> 00:15:51,350
Russia the title of which is that flying

319
00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:54,590
saucers from the Kremlin always been

320
00:15:59,860 --> 00:15:57,530
very very interested in Soviet former

321
00:16:02,620 --> 00:15:59,870
Soviet siding Russian side is in fact

322
00:16:07,690 --> 00:16:02,630
when I was a teenager there was a

323
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:07,700
magazine called Sputnik which was a put

324
00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:10,130
together by Russian editors and this

325
00:16:14,710 --> 00:16:12,050
here in the United States it was a

326
00:16:17,259 --> 00:16:14,720
little Digest magazine and we had like a

327
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:17,269
USA magazine that they allowed us to

328
00:16:23,230 --> 00:16:19,970
sell and distribute in Russian and in

329
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:23,240
the Soviet Union and they did have a

330
00:16:29,170 --> 00:16:25,370
couple of articles like on ancient

331
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:29,180
astronauts the the big author of their

332
00:16:33,670 --> 00:16:31,730
ancient astronauts theory which I think

333
00:16:36,730 --> 00:16:33,680
was even before van dannegan was

334
00:16:40,540 --> 00:16:36,740
professor ignorant and he had there

335
00:16:41,170 --> 00:16:40,550
written on the dog of Japan and so forth

336
00:16:43,809 --> 00:16:41,180
and so on

337
00:16:45,879 --> 00:16:43,819
so I wrote a letter to the editor in

338
00:16:49,269 --> 00:16:45,889
Sputnik magazine and they published it

339
00:16:52,569 --> 00:16:49,279
with my address and at 15 years old I

340
00:16:54,309 --> 00:16:52,579
began to receive mail written in poor

341
00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:54,319
English and languages that I didn't

342
00:16:59,980 --> 00:16:57,050
understand in some cases from behind the

343
00:17:02,350 --> 00:16:59,990
Soviet bloc and and some of them were

344
00:17:05,079 --> 00:17:02,360
pretty some pretty good good cases so

345
00:17:08,350 --> 00:17:05,089
even though officially the russian

346
00:17:11,770 --> 00:17:08,360
government played this down there was

347
00:17:16,270 --> 00:17:11,780
some information that was available on

348
00:17:17,620 --> 00:17:16,280
the the the subject now you know and

349
00:17:19,659 --> 00:17:17,630
you've probably written about this and

350
00:17:24,669 --> 00:17:19,669
they in your book there is the

351
00:17:28,710 --> 00:17:24,679
equivalent of an area 51 in russia what

352
00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:28,720
put me up put me are you familiar with

353
00:17:33,100 --> 00:17:31,130
there are a few places in russia

354
00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:33,110
particularly in the Ural Mountains which

355
00:17:40,299 --> 00:17:37,370
we know from satellites flights over the

356
00:17:42,909 --> 00:17:40,309
area that only Ural Mountains that over

357
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:42,919
the years the Russians have actually

358
00:17:49,299 --> 00:17:45,890
sort of quarried out and dug out massive

359
00:17:52,510 --> 00:17:49,309
underground areas and constructed huge

360
00:17:54,399 --> 00:17:52,520
you know underground bunkers and

361
00:17:56,740 --> 00:17:54,409
installations you know for whatever

362
00:17:59,770 --> 00:17:56,750
reason you know whether it's to survive

363
00:18:02,680 --> 00:17:59,780
a nuclear war or you know an area 51

364
00:18:06,870 --> 00:18:02,690
type situation we don't know but there's

365
00:18:09,100 --> 00:18:06,880
no doubt that these massive quarried out

366
00:18:11,140 --> 00:18:09,110
facilities in the Ural Mountains that

367
00:18:13,990 --> 00:18:11,150
absolutely exist you know there's no

368
00:18:16,740 --> 00:18:14,000
doubt about that at all well there was

369
00:18:20,649 --> 00:18:16,750
there was an incident that supposedly

370
00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:20,659
took place in the area surrounding it we

371
00:18:27,150 --> 00:18:22,510
are where

372
00:18:30,990 --> 00:18:27,160
a there was a dogfight between a Soviet

373
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:31,000
pilot and a UFO and I think the UFO was

374
00:18:38,220 --> 00:18:34,450
was shot down or crashed and they did

375
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:38,230
some reverse technology on that there

376
00:18:42,450 --> 00:18:40,810
were apparently a lot of incidences or

377
00:18:47,190 --> 00:18:42,460
at least this is what we were led to

378
00:18:54,180 --> 00:18:47,200
believe of Soviet the pilots exchanging

379
00:18:56,730 --> 00:18:54,190
combat with these unverified objects you

380
00:18:59,250 --> 00:18:56,740
know UFO cases in Russia that parallel

381
00:19:01,290 --> 00:18:59,260
you know what we see in the United

382
00:19:04,020 --> 00:19:01,300
States I mean or anywhere in the world

383
00:19:07,740 --> 00:19:04,030
and many demonstrates it is a like a

384
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:07,750
global phenomenon and you know it would

385
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:10,210
be it would be a surprise if you know a

386
00:19:17,610 --> 00:19:13,450
nation the size of Russia wasn't you

387
00:19:19,860 --> 00:19:17,620
know getting UFO encounters really well

388
00:19:22,790 --> 00:19:19,870
where did you get the the bulk of your

389
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:22,800
of information I mean did you exchange

390
00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:26,290
correspondence with the some Russians or

391
00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:31,600
or go through former KGB F files well a

392
00:19:38,100 --> 00:19:34,290
little bit like that but the book itself

393
00:19:41,100 --> 00:19:38,110
is not so much a study of UFO encounters

394
00:19:45,510 --> 00:19:41,110
in Russia but it's how the Russians used

395
00:19:47,810 --> 00:19:45,520
the UFO subject as a means to sort of

396
00:19:53,010 --> 00:19:47,820
Korea to use disinformation

397
00:19:55,710 --> 00:19:53,020
counterintelligence meddling and and

398
00:20:00,330 --> 00:19:55,720
spying as a means to use the UFO subject

399
00:20:03,690 --> 00:20:00,340
as a tool of of essentially to you know

400
00:20:06,290 --> 00:20:03,700
to sort of fact the u.s. mindset and you

401
00:20:09,590 --> 00:20:06,300
know you know the idea of creating and

402
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:09,600
circulating hysteria within the US and

403
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:14,290
that's not the primary goal or story and

404
00:20:20,340 --> 00:20:16,570
scenario of the book and it actually

405
00:20:22,860 --> 00:20:20,350
starts with George Adamski now back in

406
00:20:26,460 --> 00:20:22,870
the nineteen eighties the FBI released

407
00:20:29,670 --> 00:20:26,470
their file their surveillance file on

408
00:20:32,190 --> 00:20:29,680
Adamski which is about 75 pages I

409
00:20:33,540 --> 00:20:32,200
actually managed to get their most

410
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:33,550
recent

411
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:35,290
when I say version I mean because

412
00:20:39,270 --> 00:20:37,450
they've released other papers now but

413
00:20:42,510 --> 00:20:39,280
the the surveillance file that's now

414
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:42,520
being released by the FBI is just over

415
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:46,210
400 pages on a damn ski alone and he

416
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:48,610
talks it there he talks in that

417
00:20:55,020 --> 00:20:51,970
particular file as to how the FBI was

418
00:20:56,460 --> 00:20:55,030
deeply concerned that the tadam scheme

419
00:20:58,770 --> 00:20:56,470
might have been working with the

420
00:21:01,680 --> 00:20:58,780
Russians and the reason why they thought

421
00:21:04,530 --> 00:21:01,690
that was because in a number of us his

422
00:21:06,870 --> 00:21:04,540
early lectures Adamski said that being

423
00:21:11,030 --> 00:21:06,880
the so-called space brothers had a

424
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:11,040
somewhat communist type government yeah

425
00:21:15,810 --> 00:21:13,690
yeah that kinda sounds to be odd and

426
00:21:19,230 --> 00:21:15,820
weird but that's how it was described

427
00:21:21,090 --> 00:21:19,240
back then now if you think with his

428
00:21:23,910 --> 00:21:21,100
first book flying saucers of Lander

429
00:21:25,950 --> 00:21:23,920
which came out in 53 in no time that

430
00:21:27,330 --> 00:21:25,960
book sold 153

431
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:27,340
let's give me hundred twenty-five

432
00:21:34,850 --> 00:21:31,570
thousand copies and as the FBI's files

433
00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:34,860
show they were deeply concerned that

434
00:21:41,940 --> 00:21:38,910
Adamski was using the UFO subject as a

435
00:21:45,300 --> 00:21:41,950
cover to spread communism you know

436
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:45,310
saying the network ama deeds yeah now

437
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:47,530
whether you buy into that or not that

438
00:21:54,180 --> 00:21:50,650
actually was the theory that the FBI was

439
00:21:55,890 --> 00:21:54,190
following and and for that reason they

440
00:21:58,680 --> 00:21:55,900
put him under surveillance for years

441
00:22:00,210 --> 00:21:58,690
because they felt that if some you know

442
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:00,220
if somebody was just doing a lecture on

443
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:03,250
a Monday or Sunday afternoon in a local

444
00:22:07,620 --> 00:22:06,010
library and half a dozen people turned

445
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:07,630
up the FBI probably wouldn't have

446
00:22:12,930 --> 00:22:10,810
bothered or taken any notice at all but

447
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:12,940
the fact that he was selling book sales

448
00:22:18,660 --> 00:22:16,090
in the figures of 125,000 and people

449
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:18,670
were coming along to see him speak in

450
00:22:23,370 --> 00:22:20,290
their thousands and he was saying

451
00:22:25,830 --> 00:22:23,380
essentially communism is good that's

452
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:25,840
what the FBI was worried about Dave they

453
00:22:31,110 --> 00:22:28,450
genuinely thought well right or not they

454
00:22:34,170 --> 00:22:31,120
genuinely thought that he'd been sort of

455
00:22:35,820 --> 00:22:34,180
turned you know he was he been turning

456
00:22:37,890 --> 00:22:35,830
he was being used by the Russians as a

457
00:22:39,990 --> 00:22:37,900
means to find an alternative way to

458
00:22:42,870 --> 00:22:40,000
spread communism in America

459
00:22:47,250 --> 00:22:42,880
well boy that what what a way to do it

460
00:22:49,070 --> 00:22:47,260
but I I guess I guess if you don't if

461
00:22:51,420 --> 00:22:49,080
don't go along with the space brothers

462
00:22:57,360 --> 00:22:51,430
philosophy they put you on one of the

463
00:22:59,460 --> 00:22:57,370
frozen the moons of Saturn their idea of

464
00:23:01,160 --> 00:22:59,470
Siberia what are the frozen moons of

465
00:23:07,260 --> 00:23:01,170
Saturn and I guess you don't have you

466
00:23:10,050 --> 00:23:07,270
there you go well we got a break coming

467
00:23:13,140 --> 00:23:10,060
up here but we will be right back to

468
00:23:15,330 --> 00:23:13,150
continue with the great conversation

469
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:15,340
with the great Nick Redfern and Tim

470
00:23:29,610 --> 00:23:26,410
Schwartz will be on now back to

471
00:23:31,650 --> 00:23:29,620
exploring the bazaars with two of the

472
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:31,660
most electrifying researchers in the

473
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:35,050
Paranoid your hosts Timothy Becca Lee

474
00:23:41,850 --> 00:23:39,970
panting Swift's welcome back to

475
00:23:44,490 --> 00:23:41,860
exploring the bazaar I'm Tim Schwarz

476
00:23:47,820 --> 00:23:44,500
tonight we're talking with Nick Redfern

477
00:23:51,270 --> 00:23:47,830
and his current book is called flying

478
00:23:55,290 --> 00:23:51,280
saucers from the Kremlin Nick at the

479
00:23:58,680 --> 00:23:55,300
very beginning of your book you present

480
00:24:04,110 --> 00:23:58,690
an interesting a story from from

481
00:24:09,450 --> 00:24:04,120
somebody else's book about the Roswell

482
00:24:11,630 --> 00:24:09,460
crash and one of the possible out of

483
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:11,640
thousands I think at this point

484
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:14,410
explanations of what what may actually

485
00:24:21,780 --> 00:24:19,210
have occurred there and and this this

486
00:24:24,180 --> 00:24:21,790
story is you know to me it's it's really

487
00:24:28,650 --> 00:24:24,190
fascinating first of all because it's

488
00:24:34,730 --> 00:24:28,660
very similar to an idea that that you

489
00:24:38,910 --> 00:24:34,740
had presented even before the book that

490
00:24:40,650 --> 00:24:38,920
we're talking about came out but once

491
00:24:44,790 --> 00:24:40,660
again I mean he were bringing into this

492
00:24:48,570 --> 00:24:44,800
idea that possibly Russia has had

493
00:24:52,650 --> 00:24:48,580
something to do with the UFO mystery at

494
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:52,660
least here in the United States the

495
00:24:57,690 --> 00:24:55,930
story you're talking about I came from a

496
00:25:00,450 --> 00:24:57,700
woman named Annie Jacobson who about

497
00:25:01,049 --> 00:25:00,460
nine years ago I think it was nine years

498
00:25:05,940 --> 00:25:01,059
ago

499
00:25:08,909 --> 00:25:05,950
clarenbach on area 51 and she was given

500
00:25:12,989 --> 00:25:08,919
a very strange and bizarre almost

501
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:12,999
bizarre story of what one of her inside

502
00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:17,129
the store sources claimed was the truth

503
00:25:22,590 --> 00:25:20,320
behind Roswell and the man in question

504
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:22,600
this elderly man was named Alfred O

505
00:25:27,539 --> 00:25:24,730
Donnell who's now dead he died about

506
00:25:29,539 --> 00:25:27,549
three or four years ago and he spent a

507
00:25:33,869 --> 00:25:29,549
lot of his time working in and around

508
00:25:36,330 --> 00:25:33,879
the whole area 51 facility and he said

509
00:25:40,190 --> 00:25:36,340
that what came down on Roswell was not a

510
00:25:42,980 --> 00:25:40,200
UFO and aliens he said it was like a

511
00:25:46,499 --> 00:25:42,990
remote-controlled aircraft which had

512
00:25:49,340 --> 00:25:46,509
surgically altered children on board to

513
00:25:51,690 --> 00:25:49,350
make them look like aliens and the plan

514
00:25:54,539 --> 00:25:51,700
supposedly was to try and create

515
00:25:57,869 --> 00:25:54,549
hysteria in the US by creating something

516
00:26:00,119 --> 00:25:57,879
similar to Orson Welles his War of the

517
00:26:02,279 --> 00:26:00,129
Worlds situation which made people think

518
00:26:05,220 --> 00:26:02,289
you know there really was an alien

519
00:26:08,310 --> 00:26:05,230
invasion and according to the story told

520
00:26:10,409 --> 00:26:08,320
to Anna Jacobson Russia staged the

521
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:10,419
Roswell event to try and make America

522
00:26:16,019 --> 00:26:13,450
think aliens are invading but personally

523
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:16,029
I don't buy into this story because you

524
00:26:22,230 --> 00:26:19,450
know the idea that in the 1940s you

525
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:22,240
could surgically alter children to make

526
00:26:26,730 --> 00:26:25,330
them look like aliens when we really

527
00:26:29,340 --> 00:26:26,740
didn't have a concept of what aliens

528
00:26:32,549 --> 00:26:29,350
look like back then you know that's one

529
00:26:35,070 --> 00:26:32,559
thing and then the other angle is you

530
00:26:38,850 --> 00:26:35,080
know how could these altered Peru

531
00:26:41,970 --> 00:26:38,860
children you know fly you know his

532
00:26:43,590 --> 00:26:41,980
futuristic aircraft from from Russia to

533
00:26:45,869 --> 00:26:43,600
the United States well according to the

534
00:26:48,629 --> 00:26:45,879
story that old Donald said maybe the

535
00:26:51,169 --> 00:26:48,639
plane or this bizarre aircraft was

536
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:51,179
remotely flown by another which sounds

537
00:27:00,389 --> 00:26:54,730
again sort of far too advanced to me for

538
00:27:02,940 --> 00:27:00,399
the 1940s so I think Alfred O'Donnell he

539
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:02,950
either firmly believed the story was

540
00:27:09,950 --> 00:27:06,090
telling to annie jacobson or he was

541
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:09,960
deliberately giving annie jacobson

542
00:27:14,620 --> 00:27:13,090
disinformation to hide whatever the the

543
00:27:18,130 --> 00:27:14,630
big story really was

544
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:18,140
Staley's at Roseville well it sounds to

545
00:27:26,050 --> 00:27:22,490
me that Jacobson didn't really do her

546
00:27:28,930 --> 00:27:26,060
homework when it came to some of the

547
00:27:30,690 --> 00:27:28,940
players involved I mean like supposedly

548
00:27:33,340 --> 00:27:30,700
the aircraft had been built by the

549
00:27:35,830 --> 00:27:33,350
Horton brothers who had you know

550
00:27:38,170 --> 00:27:35,840
originally developed aircraft for Nazi

551
00:27:39,940 --> 00:27:38,180
Germany while at that time Norton

552
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:39,950
brothers weren't he worked in Russia

553
00:27:50,230 --> 00:27:42,290
they were in an Argentine probably and

554
00:27:52,740 --> 00:27:50,240
and let's see Joseph Mengele one of the

555
00:27:55,630 --> 00:27:52,750
things that sort of you know makes me

556
00:27:58,330 --> 00:27:55,640
sort of suspect that Annie Jason

557
00:28:00,280 --> 00:27:58,340
Jacobson was given a fake story yeah and

558
00:28:02,410 --> 00:28:00,290
I should stress you know she wasn't in

559
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:02,420
any way involved in fakery or anything

560
00:28:07,330 --> 00:28:04,250
like that she just tell the stories it

561
00:28:09,670 --> 00:28:07,340
was told to her money but you know what

562
00:28:12,930 --> 00:28:09,680
I would say is that one of the things

563
00:28:17,020 --> 00:28:12,940
she mentions in the book is that the

564
00:28:19,270 --> 00:28:17,030
inside of the craft had sort of German

565
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:19,280
writing and and excuse me Russian

566
00:28:24,100 --> 00:28:22,010
writing and symbols in there and of

567
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:24,110
course that begs a question well if you

568
00:28:30,220 --> 00:28:27,410
want to confuse people and have them

569
00:28:32,380 --> 00:28:30,230
believe that it was alien why on earth

570
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:32,390
would you put Russian writing inside the

571
00:28:37,570 --> 00:28:35,450
craft you know it wouldn't take long for

572
00:28:39,070 --> 00:28:37,580
someone who knew Russian to say well

573
00:28:41,170 --> 00:28:39,080
hang on a minute this is Russian this

574
00:28:43,870 --> 00:28:41,180
isn't you know some bizarre strange

575
00:28:46,570 --> 00:28:43,880
alien languages it's the Russian

576
00:28:48,910 --> 00:28:46,580
language and so you know to me it's

577
00:28:50,830 --> 00:28:48,920
bizarre that they would even you know

578
00:28:52,770 --> 00:28:50,840
sort of have Russian writing inside the

579
00:28:56,260 --> 00:28:52,780
craft it would give it away almost

580
00:28:58,660 --> 00:28:56,270
immediately and and as I said yeah it

581
00:29:00,370 --> 00:28:58,670
was well thought out because like you

582
00:29:02,980 --> 00:29:00,380
said I mean he involved the Horton

583
00:29:08,250 --> 00:29:02,990
Brothers and some of their strange

584
00:29:10,660 --> 00:29:08,260
aircraft designs and it also included

585
00:29:13,180 --> 00:29:10,670
Joseph Mengele who was the you know one

586
00:29:16,660 --> 00:29:13,190
of craziest dangerous evil people of the

587
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:16,670
Second World War who actually did have

588
00:29:20,500 --> 00:29:19,970
like a very disturbing fascination with

589
00:29:23,170 --> 00:29:20,510
dwarf

590
00:29:26,500 --> 00:29:23,180
that's actually true and he performed

591
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:26,510
all sorts of bizarre experiments

592
00:29:32,350 --> 00:29:28,250
terrible experiments

593
00:29:34,990 --> 00:29:32,360
on dwarfs and so you know a lot of the

594
00:29:38,110 --> 00:29:35,000
components had been put into that story

595
00:29:40,870 --> 00:29:38,120
but Alfred O'Donnell gave to annie

596
00:29:44,919 --> 00:29:40,880
jacobson but for me there are so many

597
00:29:47,289 --> 00:29:44,929
odd aspects you know that I just don't

598
00:29:50,140 --> 00:29:47,299
think in the forties you know we could

599
00:29:54,700 --> 00:29:50,150
achieve all that well and that that

600
00:29:57,100 --> 00:29:54,710
plays in though with the the the whole

601
00:30:01,539 --> 00:29:57,110
United States government being very

602
00:30:06,130 --> 00:30:01,549
fearful especially starting in the 1950s

603
00:30:10,590 --> 00:30:06,140
that somehow the the whole UFO phenomena

604
00:30:13,990 --> 00:30:10,600
/ movement was was somehow being either

605
00:30:18,490 --> 00:30:14,000
orchestrated by the Soviet Union or the

606
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:18,500
Soviet Union was using that for whatever

607
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:20,330
reasons you know propaganda

608
00:30:25,630 --> 00:30:22,610
disinformation trying to you know find

609
00:30:28,500 --> 00:30:25,640
out more you know about military secrets

610
00:30:31,690 --> 00:30:28,510
in the United States or what-have-you

611
00:30:33,399 --> 00:30:31,700
yeah good point

612
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:33,409
when I was doing the research for the

613
00:30:39,340 --> 00:30:37,130
book I actually got hold of some old

614
00:30:42,460 --> 00:30:39,350
correspondence from one of the sort of

615
00:30:45,130 --> 00:30:42,470
second wave of the 1950's contactees a

616
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:45,140
guy named Orfeo angelo qi who announced

617
00:30:51,549 --> 00:30:47,690
him there'll be no will know very well

618
00:30:53,470 --> 00:30:51,559
who Angelou she was and you know he was

619
00:30:56,980 --> 00:30:53,480
like I said he was poor like the second

620
00:30:59,860 --> 00:30:56,990
wave of UFO s caribou contactees after

621
00:31:03,640 --> 00:30:59,870
like a damn scheme and hassle and

622
00:31:06,460 --> 00:31:03,650
William certain people like that and in

623
00:31:07,779 --> 00:31:06,470
his private correspondence Angelou she

624
00:31:10,690 --> 00:31:07,789
said there are on a number of occasions

625
00:31:12,970 --> 00:31:10,700
when he was lecturing he would have

626
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:12,980
these sort of sinister groups of people

627
00:31:18,159 --> 00:31:15,890
would come up to him these guys talking

628
00:31:23,789 --> 00:31:18,169
in what he described as like a European

629
00:31:27,870 --> 00:31:23,799
accent and they tried to convince him to

630
00:31:31,810 --> 00:31:27,880
insert the scenario of the aliens being

631
00:31:33,850 --> 00:31:31,820
communists into his lectures now this

632
00:31:36,100 --> 00:31:33,860
went on sort of four or five times where

633
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:36,110
they almost like the sinister type of

634
00:31:40,990 --> 00:31:40,010
group followed Angelou Chi around the

635
00:31:43,930 --> 00:31:41,000
u.s.

636
00:31:45,850 --> 00:31:43,940
and it got quite almost like bullying

637
00:31:48,549 --> 00:31:45,860
you know we need you to do this we want

638
00:31:50,350 --> 00:31:48,559
you to you know impress on people that

639
00:31:52,450 --> 00:31:50,360
the the aliens that you met were

640
00:31:55,630 --> 00:31:52,460
communists and you would not do it and

641
00:31:58,510 --> 00:31:55,640
the FBI actually got wind of this as

642
00:32:00,039 --> 00:31:58,520
well and the FBI pointed out to him that

643
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:00,049
you know he wasn't in any trouble and

644
00:32:03,580 --> 00:32:01,370
they were pleased he'd actually

645
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:03,590
approached them but what's interesting

646
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:06,650
is that I got the story through his

647
00:32:10,990 --> 00:32:09,530
private correspondence and some of the

648
00:32:14,620 --> 00:32:11,000
things that he'd been writing in his

649
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:14,630
books but when I contacted the FBI I

650
00:32:21,190 --> 00:32:17,210
found that yes they actually did have a

651
00:32:24,610 --> 00:32:21,200
file on down Angelo Qi but they

652
00:32:26,740 --> 00:32:24,620
destroyed it in 2009 and that's in

653
00:32:28,779 --> 00:32:26,750
passing right and the FBI said yes we

654
00:32:32,020 --> 00:32:28,789
had this file on Angelo Qi but

655
00:32:33,820 --> 00:32:32,030
unfortunately it was destroyed 10 years

656
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:33,830
ago and we don't know why it was

657
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:37,610
destroyed I mean the Van Tassel file you

658
00:32:43,690 --> 00:32:41,090
can go to the FBI's website the vault

659
00:32:47,549 --> 00:32:43,700
and download the George Van Tassel file

660
00:32:50,980 --> 00:32:47,559
which is about 450 pages and read it

661
00:32:54,039 --> 00:32:50,990
bill Cooper you know the conspiracy

662
00:32:56,409 --> 00:32:54,049
theorist of the 1980s 90s East files

663
00:32:56,799 --> 00:32:56,419
huge and you can read that it's the

664
00:33:00,880 --> 00:32:56,809
vault

665
00:33:03,310 --> 00:33:00,890
the FBI's website so and Frank Scully

666
00:33:06,250 --> 00:33:03,320
Silas Mutants files they're all there

667
00:33:09,610 --> 00:33:06,260
online and as PDFs for you to download

668
00:33:12,789 --> 00:33:09,620
freely and yet for some reason

669
00:33:16,210 --> 00:33:12,799
Angelo G's file was relegated to the

670
00:33:18,940 --> 00:33:16,220
furnace or the shredder you know no are

671
00:33:22,060 --> 00:33:18,950
they keeping just a sec are they keeping

672
00:33:24,279 --> 00:33:22,070
tabs on any you follow just currently I

673
00:33:27,039 --> 00:33:24,289
mean I guess Stan Friedman claims that

674
00:33:29,649 --> 00:33:27,049
they had a file on him right well they

675
00:33:32,740 --> 00:33:29,659
did I mean since Stan died a couple of

676
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:32,750
people of applied fees file but there's

677
00:33:37,990 --> 00:33:35,090
no kind of smoking gun or anything like

678
00:33:42,399 --> 00:33:38,000
that it's sort of 30 or 40 pages that

679
00:33:45,700 --> 00:33:42,409
really don't amount to anything but what

680
00:33:48,100 --> 00:33:45,710
I would say you know is that we know

681
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:48,110
that back in the eighties because if

682
00:33:52,389 --> 00:33:49,730
they admitted it the FBI

683
00:33:54,290 --> 00:33:52,399
back in the eighties had a file of about

684
00:33:56,390 --> 00:33:54,300
78 or 80 pages on

685
00:33:59,510 --> 00:33:56,400
bill Moore who co-wrote with Charles

686
00:34:02,470 --> 00:33:59,520
Berlitz the Roswell incident so we don't

687
00:34:06,470 --> 00:34:02,480
you know Moore's file to be considerably

688
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:06,480
longer by now but the ones that the FBI

689
00:34:13,010 --> 00:34:08,810
have posted to their website the vault

690
00:34:17,390 --> 00:34:13,020
included said Bill Cooper George Van

691
00:34:18,550 --> 00:34:17,400
Tassel also in the UFO subject Frank

692
00:34:21,410 --> 00:34:18,560
Scully

693
00:34:25,810 --> 00:34:21,420
Silas Newton and Leo Jabbar who were big

694
00:34:29,690 --> 00:34:25,820
players in the Aztec crashed UFO story

695
00:34:32,390 --> 00:34:29,700
there at their entire cattle mutilation

696
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:32,400
files are on file at the vault as well

697
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:34,410
but there are some interesting files

698
00:34:43,100 --> 00:34:40,290
which have been removed for example some

699
00:34:46,490 --> 00:34:43,110
of the earlier contact II files have

700
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:46,500
been removed they were on prior at one

701
00:34:51,980 --> 00:34:48,450
point they're gone like for example

702
00:34:56,570 --> 00:34:51,990
there was one on Howard menja that was

703
00:35:01,580 --> 00:34:56,580
taken down and you know you have to

704
00:35:03,770 --> 00:35:01,590
wonder what's the reason for that so if

705
00:35:06,020 --> 00:35:03,780
the files are interesting but it is kind

706
00:35:08,750 --> 00:35:06,030
of weird at some time to time they

707
00:35:11,510 --> 00:35:08,760
suddenly decide to remove some of them

708
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:11,520
or even destroy them like in the example

709
00:35:21,710 --> 00:35:19,530
of Angelo G so it I can see why the

710
00:35:26,180 --> 00:35:21,720
United States government in the 50s may

711
00:35:30,620 --> 00:35:26,190
have worried about some of the things

712
00:35:33,230 --> 00:35:30,630
the these contactees were saying because

713
00:35:35,300 --> 00:35:33,240
the majority of them talked about how

714
00:35:36,830 --> 00:35:35,310
the the space brothers had told them

715
00:35:40,220 --> 00:35:36,840
that you know the planets that they came

716
00:35:43,460 --> 00:35:40,230
from you know the Utopia one-world

717
00:35:46,580 --> 00:35:43,470
government there was no money everything

718
00:35:50,420 --> 00:35:46,590
was free everybody you know shared and

719
00:35:52,910 --> 00:35:50,430
shared alike which you know terrible

720
00:35:56,300 --> 00:35:52,920
concept yeah but in you know in the

721
00:35:59,030 --> 00:35:56,310
1950s you know you might as well have

722
00:36:03,680 --> 00:35:59,040
just said you know this is you know this

723
00:36:06,620 --> 00:36:03,690
is socialism ricotta or communism they

724
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:06,630
would say that today certainly Wall

725
00:36:11,900 --> 00:36:08,490
Street in the banking

726
00:36:13,340 --> 00:36:11,910
you know Federal Reserve and all that do

727
00:36:17,330 --> 00:36:13,350
you think there'd be any difference

728
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:17,340
today I don't think so well I think I

729
00:36:21,110 --> 00:36:19,050
think one of the main things is that

730
00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:21,120
back in the certainly late forties early

731
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:23,730
fifties and through most of the fifties

732
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:26,850
yeah there was a great deal of paranoia

733
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:30,170
about Russians and you know the you know

734
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:32,490
Russians under the beds that kind of

735
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:34,610
things you know Reds under the beds and

736
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:37,890
you know the idea of Soviet penetration

737
00:36:44,060 --> 00:36:40,890
and over this you know McCarthyism and

738
00:36:47,690 --> 00:36:44,070
so I think it was an era that the

739
00:36:50,570 --> 00:36:47,700
Russian sort of realized they could kind

740
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:50,580
of use these to their advantage whereas

741
00:36:54,620 --> 00:36:52,890
today well I say to death up until a

742
00:36:57,410 --> 00:36:54,630
couple of years ago you know that at all

743
00:36:59,660 --> 00:36:57,420
pretty much gone but now today you know

744
00:37:02,480 --> 00:36:59,670
with the whole Russian meddling thing

745
00:37:07,460 --> 00:37:02,490
again that whole paranoia is kind of

746
00:37:08,990 --> 00:37:07,470
coming back again and you know and and

747
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:09,000
the Russians are sort of you know

748
00:37:15,230 --> 00:37:12,690
meddling again so but yeah back then I

749
00:37:17,450 --> 00:37:15,240
think the Russians knew that they could

750
00:37:19,610 --> 00:37:17,460
use this to their advantage and I think

751
00:37:22,460 --> 00:37:19,620
the reason why it worked is because both

752
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:22,470
sides knew that there are you know big

753
00:37:26,150 --> 00:37:24,570
irony is both sides knew the West and

754
00:37:30,020 --> 00:37:26,160
the East that there is a real UFO

755
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:30,030
phenomenon but they chose to exploit

756
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:33,090
that real phenomenon as a means to as I

757
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:35,970
said create paranoia hysteria or worry

758
00:37:41,750 --> 00:37:40,410
as to what was going on you know well

759
00:37:43,850 --> 00:37:41,760
and there was actual there are there are

760
00:37:48,170 --> 00:37:43,860
actually you know rumors in the 1950s

761
00:37:50,750 --> 00:37:48,180
that every UFO civilian UFO group had

762
00:37:52,910 --> 00:37:50,760
been infiltrated by at least one Soviet

763
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:52,920
agent which I mean that's that's a lot

764
00:38:01,760 --> 00:37:55,530
of Soviet agents if that was if that's

765
00:38:03,350 --> 00:38:01,770
if that was a true rumor you know you

766
00:38:05,450 --> 00:38:03,360
know angle of the whole story that I

767
00:38:10,340 --> 00:38:05,460
talked about in the book be you know the

768
00:38:14,810 --> 00:38:10,350
idea that the UFO groups in the US were

769
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:14,820
being monitored and watched by US

770
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:17,010
officials because they were worried that

771
00:38:21,530 --> 00:38:19,530
the researchers were being sort of

772
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:21,540
swayed by communism but

773
00:38:27,410 --> 00:38:24,330
also they were looking but also the

774
00:38:32,060 --> 00:38:27,420
Russians allegedly were sort of looking

775
00:38:34,550 --> 00:38:32,070
at the angle of infiltration of UFO

776
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:34,560
groups and one of the particularly

777
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:36,810
interesting things that the Russians

778
00:38:42,890 --> 00:38:39,330
were trying to do was to approach people

779
00:38:45,650 --> 00:38:42,900
in ufology who also worked in the

780
00:38:47,570 --> 00:38:45,660
aviation world and they would sort of

781
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:47,580
try and tease them hey you know you're

782
00:38:53,630 --> 00:38:51,930
working in u.s. aviation world and you

783
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:53,640
know if you tell us what's going on

784
00:38:58,160 --> 00:38:55,890
we'll give you a few nuggets of what's

785
00:39:00,080 --> 00:38:58,170
going on in Russia in relation to UFOs

786
00:39:04,850 --> 00:39:00,090
so it was like a dangling carrot

787
00:39:08,150 --> 00:39:04,860
scenario and you know it's a very kind

788
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:08,160
of bizarre sort of situation you know as

789
00:39:13,810 --> 00:39:10,410
it as it all sort of played out and the

790
00:39:17,540 --> 00:39:13,820
the means and the reasons why to kind of

791
00:39:20,030 --> 00:39:17,550
you know use all this as a means to just

792
00:39:22,100 --> 00:39:20,040
screw with people's minds really more

793
00:39:23,570 --> 00:39:22,110
than anything else but one of these that

794
00:39:26,270 --> 00:39:23,580
when you mentioned this about all the

795
00:39:30,410 --> 00:39:26,280
UFO story UFO groups being monitored

796
00:39:32,930 --> 00:39:30,420
this story was actually given to Jim

797
00:39:35,390 --> 00:39:32,940
Mosely back in the nineteen fifties by a

798
00:39:37,250 --> 00:39:35,400
guy named Charles from samwick now

799
00:39:40,910 --> 00:39:37,260
Charles Stanwyck was someone who worked

800
00:39:41,990 --> 00:39:40,920
in US Army Intelligence in the 50s and I

801
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:42,000
actually through the Freedom of

802
00:39:46,730 --> 00:39:44,130
Information Act managed to get some of

803
00:39:48,890 --> 00:39:46,740
his files and he certainly did work in

804
00:39:51,290 --> 00:39:48,900
the field of counterintelligence in

805
00:39:54,890 --> 00:39:51,300
other words fabricating and creating

806
00:39:57,170 --> 00:39:54,900
material to push the Russians down you

807
00:39:59,270 --> 00:39:57,180
know the wrong paths and confuse them so

808
00:40:01,280 --> 00:39:59,280
despite the fact that you know Jim was

809
00:40:04,220 --> 00:40:01,290
what somebody who liked to sort of play

810
00:40:08,390 --> 00:40:04,230
around with ufology in terms of the

811
00:40:11,270 --> 00:40:08,400
Charles sandwich saga he really was who

812
00:40:14,870 --> 00:40:11,280
Jim claimed him to be he really did work

813
00:40:17,060 --> 00:40:14,880
in US intelligence and he had a lot of

814
00:40:19,340 --> 00:40:17,070
information on how the Russians were

815
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:19,350
trying to infiltrate Russia at American

816
00:40:23,890 --> 00:40:22,410
you follow gee and indeed work in the

817
00:40:27,830 --> 00:40:23,900
fields of disinformation

818
00:40:31,100 --> 00:40:27,840
counterintelligence and messing with the

819
00:40:33,410 --> 00:40:31,110
you know the Russian mindset well in

820
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:33,420
that that brings us up in there to to

821
00:40:41,090 --> 00:40:34,650
more recent

822
00:40:45,570 --> 00:40:41,100
especially the the 1980s when you had

823
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:45,580
the possibility that say well okay we'll

824
00:40:51,980 --> 00:40:47,850
go back to you like area 51 that

825
00:40:55,740 --> 00:40:51,990
possibly the whole rumor that area 51

826
00:40:59,400 --> 00:40:55,750
was testing extraterrestrial spacecraft

827
00:41:02,910 --> 00:40:59,410
was kind of almost a honey trap to try

828
00:41:06,090 --> 00:41:02,920
to lure in Russian agents who were

829
00:41:08,070 --> 00:41:06,100
trying to find out say about the testing

830
00:41:09,690 --> 00:41:08,080
of what would later become the you know

831
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:09,700
stealth bomber and stealth fighters and

832
00:41:18,870 --> 00:41:14,050
things like that right I mean the CIA

833
00:41:20,180 --> 00:41:18,880
was very worried that in the 1980s when

834
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:20,190
you know more and more sophisticated

835
00:41:25,290 --> 00:41:23,050
high-tech aircraft were being tested out

836
00:41:29,030 --> 00:41:25,300
there there was a great deal of worry

837
00:41:32,010 --> 00:41:29,040
that you know the Russians would sort of

838
00:41:35,070 --> 00:41:32,020
provide under-the-table payments to

839
00:41:37,590 --> 00:41:35,080
people who worked out at area 51 and in

840
00:41:39,150 --> 00:41:37,600
return you know they would get something

841
00:41:41,910 --> 00:41:39,160
of value to them where there would be

842
00:41:44,940 --> 00:41:41,920
money or in some cases it might be

843
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:44,950
painful in in u.s. intelligence who had

844
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:47,050
a personal interest in UFOs and the

845
00:41:52,020 --> 00:41:48,970
Russians said well you know we'll give

846
00:41:53,460 --> 00:41:52,030
you some cool UFO material if you tell

847
00:41:55,770 --> 00:41:53,470
us what's going on with your latest

848
00:41:58,710 --> 00:41:55,780
aircraft designs and and you're right he

849
00:42:01,020 --> 00:41:58,720
is you know like a like a lure you know

850
00:42:03,990 --> 00:42:01,030
sort of the dangling carrot scenario and

851
00:42:07,590 --> 00:42:04,000
pulling someone in and you know the

852
00:42:10,650 --> 00:42:07,600
Russians would in essence give the the

853
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:10,660
people in the US you know the area 51 or

854
00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:14,010
whatever totally bogus fake material and

855
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:16,510
the Russians in return from their

856
00:42:22,260 --> 00:42:18,610
perspective the the hope would be that

857
00:42:25,290 --> 00:42:22,270
they would get something solid in return

858
00:42:27,720 --> 00:42:25,300
and the CIA and both the defense

859
00:42:30,870 --> 00:42:27,730
intelligence agency civil defense

860
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:30,880
intelligence agency both of them came to

861
00:42:37,140 --> 00:42:33,010
suspect that the majestic 12 documents

862
00:42:40,380 --> 00:42:37,150
that Stan Freeman champion for so many

863
00:42:42,660 --> 00:42:40,390
years they came to suspect they did not

864
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:42,670
prove that I suspected that the mj-12

865
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:45,610
documents were created by the Russians

866
00:42:50,340 --> 00:42:47,770
and the plan was to

867
00:42:53,490 --> 00:42:50,350
provide these documents with people who

868
00:42:56,100 --> 00:42:53,500
worked at at area 51 and again hope they

869
00:42:57,750 --> 00:42:56,110
get something really returned where as

870
00:42:59,940 --> 00:42:57,760
what they were actually the other side

871
00:43:04,070 --> 00:42:59,950
we get the Americans would be bogus

872
00:43:07,290 --> 00:43:04,080
documents on majestic 12 so you know

873
00:43:09,660 --> 00:43:07,300
it's a fascinating scenario the idea

874
00:43:13,290 --> 00:43:09,670
that the Russians cooked up the mj-12

875
00:43:16,140 --> 00:43:13,300
documents as kind of a like a magnet to

876
00:43:18,359 --> 00:43:16,150
pull in people who they could hire from

877
00:43:22,170 --> 00:43:18,369
within US intelligence and turn them

878
00:43:26,609 --> 00:43:22,180
into sort of double agents well that

879
00:43:30,450 --> 00:43:26,619
brings us up to today and I mean is is

880
00:43:32,430 --> 00:43:30,460
this kind of activity still taking place

881
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:32,440
I mean you had mentioned earlier you

882
00:43:38,130 --> 00:43:36,010
know you had the whole paranoia of the

883
00:43:39,359 --> 00:43:38,140
Soviet spy or somebody so existing where

884
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:39,369
the Russians you know trying to

885
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:41,050
infiltrate or election and things like

886
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:44,290
that seems like that the same kind of

887
00:43:51,420 --> 00:43:46,810
tricks are still being still going on

888
00:43:56,330 --> 00:43:51,430
even today I'll give you a perfect

889
00:43:59,820 --> 00:43:56,340
example of it when the whole issue of

890
00:44:01,470 --> 00:43:59,830
Edward Snowden started just a few years

891
00:44:04,230 --> 00:44:01,480
back you know you've got this guy who

892
00:44:06,450 --> 00:44:04,240
becomes literally overnight you know

893
00:44:09,090 --> 00:44:06,460
depending how you look at him some

894
00:44:11,460 --> 00:44:09,100
people saw him as you know public enemy

895
00:44:14,970 --> 00:44:11,470
number one other people saw him as a

896
00:44:16,980 --> 00:44:14,980
hero you know revealing how you know the

897
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:16,990
US population was potentially being

898
00:44:20,609 --> 00:44:19,570
watched and surveyed whether through

899
00:44:23,970 --> 00:44:20,619
social media

900
00:44:26,700 --> 00:44:23,980
iPhones etc now one of the things that a

901
00:44:31,109 --> 00:44:26,710
lot of people don't know is that one of

902
00:44:35,099 --> 00:44:31,119
the particular documents that and files

903
00:44:38,310 --> 00:44:35,109
that Snowden released was called how

904
00:44:40,890 --> 00:44:38,320
covert agents infiltrate the internet

905
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:40,900
and it was a it was a document but that

906
00:44:48,990 --> 00:44:44,970
basically explained how people's

907
00:44:53,130 --> 00:44:49,000
reputations to be destroyed by using the

908
00:44:57,210 --> 00:44:53,140
Internet now one particular aspect of

909
00:44:59,559 --> 00:44:57,220
this document shows a number of images

910
00:45:04,479 --> 00:44:59,569
of flying saucers

911
00:45:07,539 --> 00:45:04,489
we still don't know why UFOs or images

912
00:45:10,630 --> 00:45:07,549
of UFOs are contained within this

913
00:45:13,359 --> 00:45:10,640
particular document the details and

914
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:13,369
describes how to infiltrate the Internet

915
00:45:21,519 --> 00:45:18,650
and shatter people's reputations so this

916
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:21,529
demonstrates it in some strange way the

917
00:45:28,650 --> 00:45:25,130
whole psychological warfare manipulating

918
00:45:32,499 --> 00:45:28,660
people in ufology is still going on and

919
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:32,509
that particular documents is important

920
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:35,690
because it you know it goes back to you

921
00:45:40,299 --> 00:45:37,249
know just a couple of years when it's

922
00:45:43,989 --> 00:45:40,309
surfaced and and we learned that UFOs

923
00:45:48,039 --> 00:45:43,999
were somehow being used as a tool you

924
00:45:51,339 --> 00:45:48,049
know to manipulate and crash down you

925
00:45:53,559 --> 00:45:51,349
know reputations and and again you had

926
00:45:57,489 --> 00:45:53,569
nothing to do with real UFOs but

927
00:46:00,279 --> 00:45:57,499
everything to do with finding ways to to

928
00:46:03,759 --> 00:46:00,289
destroy the mindset of people who are

929
00:46:06,549 --> 00:46:03,769
being targeted all right we got less

930
00:46:08,529 --> 00:46:06,559
than really about a minute left to go on

931
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:08,539
the show so flying saucers from the

932
00:46:13,930 --> 00:46:09,890
Kremlin and your other books Nick

933
00:46:17,229 --> 00:46:13,940
working people find those books on

934
00:46:18,519 --> 00:46:17,239
Amazon and about 50 60 percent of them

935
00:46:20,199 --> 00:46:18,529
for papers still like to go to

936
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:20,209
bookstores you can get them from Barnes

937
00:46:28,059 --> 00:46:24,170
& Noble alright great and Tim Beck Lee

938
00:46:30,670 --> 00:46:28,069
area51 warning keep out is that do

939
00:46:32,559 --> 00:46:30,680
people get that down it's available it's

940
00:46:35,049 --> 00:46:32,569
available now and if they order tonight

941
00:46:37,930 --> 00:46:35,059
it's an incredible price and it's got to

942
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:37,940
go up in and within a day it's it's just

943
00:46:42,339 --> 00:46:39,410
an incredible price I don't know why I

944
00:46:44,229 --> 00:46:42,349
did this I I was out in the desert and

945
00:46:48,849 --> 00:46:44,239
it was just too much and don't forget to

946
00:46:53,859 --> 00:46:48,859
the ash stars space brothers speak I'm

947
00:46:57,180 --> 00:46:53,869
alright Mario HOF yes or no honey thank

948
00:47:07,940 --> 00:47:00,579
welcome see you in Russian okay alright

949
00:47:13,700 --> 00:47:10,579
you've been listening to exploring the

950
00:47:17,210 --> 00:47:13,710
bazaar with hosts Timothy Beckley

951
00:47:19,490 --> 00:47:17,220
panting Swartz they're taking back the

952
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:19,500
night by jetting non-stop across the

953
00:47:25,370 --> 00:47:22,050
cosmos in search of the truly bizarre

954
00:47:28,700 --> 00:47:25,380
and totally unexplained with you as

955
00:47:32,690 --> 00:47:28,710
their combined Thursday nights at 7:00

956
00:47:35,190 --> 00:47:32,700
p.m. Pacific 10:00 p.m. Eastern on the K

957
00:47:37,650 --> 00:47:35,200
cor digital radio

958
00:47:41,099 --> 00:47:37,660
for more information on exploring the

959
00:47:43,950 --> 00:47:41,109
bazaar and hosts timothy Beckley and tim

960
00:47:47,039 --> 00:47:43,960
Swartz check out their kco our digital

961
00:47:53,250 --> 00:47:47,049
radio network follow their YouTube

962
00:48:03,660 --> 00:47:53,260
channel @m r UFO 1100 explore the